Last week (week of March 6th), Artie the atheist at //freeatheism.org, entered a comment on one of my posts. Then not long afterwards, Artie emailed me with his, ‘Theist Challenge’ and insisted that the atheist position is the “justified” position and that belief in Christ Jesus is not.
This post is a compilation of Artie’s and my email exchange. In our email exchange, you will see how extremely weak the atheist position is. You will see how to clearly point the weakness out to the atheist. You will also see how the atheist sets up strawman arguments and focuses on these straw man arguments to boast that the atheist position is the “justified” position.
How to answer the ‘Theist Challenge’ from Artie
Remember, the atheist’s position is to: just claim that God didn’t do it. Although they cannot prove God didn’t do it, they insist that those who believe in God must prove that God did it. God though, has already proven Himself to everyone and everyone knows God exists and has created everything (Romans 1:18-32).
Unlike atheists of the past which preached that God does not exist; atheists today preach that they do not believe in, God. Many atheists (as Artie does) will concede that God may exist, yet they chose to not believe in God.
Atheists preach that in the beginning, anything and everything and most importantly and especially not God, could be the cause of all creation and life.
No matter what evidence is before them, the true atheist will deny God. God has made it clear to everyone He exists (Romans 1:18-32). God also gives us free will to choose and many people will choose to not believe in God and instead will believe in false gods.
Most atheists who come to you with a challenge like Artie’s, are not interested in actually knowing God. These atheists are just trying to make themselves feel better about their extremely poor self-esteem due the fact that they know God actually does exist. These atheists seek out people who they can intimidate using their strawman tactics. Atheists look for people who really don’t know the Bible nor follow Christ Jesus (who may even just say that they are a believer) because these people fall for atheist tactics and thus embolden the atheist more in their weak position. Simply put, these atheists look for people who do not go to God for His strength, knowledge, assistance and guidance.
In this post you will also see how to answer an atheist and exactly what the atheist actually claim to believe in; yet most just like Artie, don’t realize what they actually claim to believe until you point it out to them…
Prior to answering any atheist, remember the following:
- Everyone knows He exists (Romans 1:18-32)
- Everyone has a choice (John 19-21; Matthew 7:13-14)
- Not everyone who teaches about God teaches truth (Matthew 7:15-20)
- Not everyone who claims to believe in God does (Matthew 7:21-23)
- God’s will is that everyone choses to be forever with Him (2 Peter 3:8-10)
- Everyone must die and then face judgement (Hebrews 9:27)
- God’s only begotten Son (Christ Jesus) is the only way to be forever with God in Heaven (John 3:16-21; John 3:36; John 14:6; John 17:3; Acts 4:12)
- Being forever with God forever in Heaven a choice everyone must make for themselves and is as simple as:
Admit, that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior (Romans 6:23)
Abandon, self-effort and realize that you can not be saved by your works or your own efforts (Acts 16:31)
Accept, freely Christ’s payment for your sins, required of the Father (John 3:16)
Acknowledge, Jesus Christ as your personal lord and Savior (Acts 4:12)
The preparation needed for a follower of Christ Jesus to answer an atheist’s questions/challenge:
- Pray continually for God’s strength, guidance and knowledge
- Pray for the atheist to open his/her eyes to God’s love for them
- Let the atheist know God’s love for the him/her and how the atheist can be saved (the Gospel of Christ Jesus)
- Always in your answers reflect to the atheist God’s love of them; be respectful
- Stay Biblical and stay on track with God’s Word – stay on the narrow path and don’t get sidetracked down the wide path the atheist is on
- Be respectful and reflect God’s truth – you as a follower of Christ Jesus should reflect God’s love to everyone
- Show the atheist their bias and what they believe – draw on God’s wisdom and knowledge
- Respect the atheist’s choice (although we want him/her to be forever in Heaven with God and us, the atheist may still chose to not be with God and us)
- Pray that the atheist repents and accepts Christ Jesus as Savior
- Let the atheist make his/her choice – God doesn’t force anyone to make a choice and we shouldn’t either
The communication Artie the atheist and Me had follows:
Artie’s first contact was a comment on one of my blog posts:
This post is a great example of Christian dishonesty.
Artie then sent an email to me:
Your twitter posts & blogs are blind shouting with no debate & no response. Much of it is invented to support your myth and to wrongly diminish the justified position, atheism. I challenge you to actually justify your belief with evidence. Until you do atheism is the justified position. I’ve enclosed my official challenge. I hope you arent too afraid to actually test your position… I do every day. It is justified.
The next day prior to my reply to him, Artie sent another email to me:
I’m not going away… I’m waiting for you to actually justify your belief. Your preaching deserves scrutiny because its full of holes.
Let me know what forum you will be responding & debating on. Note my official challenge.
Here is Artie’s “official challenge.”
Notice how the “Theist Challenge” is worded?
By default, all evidence God has clearly demonstrated to everyone (including atheists) is excluded.
Do not fall for the atheist tactic of having the follower of Christ Jesus supply evidence of God existing. Review “God’s Position” above and allow God’s wisdom and knowledge guide you in your communication with atheists.
My first email reply to Artie:
Artie, what specific evidence will you accept? Please be specific.
Victor a.k.a. GospelToday
Artie’s reply back to me:
Thanks for responding! What kind of evidence? Anything you find particularly convincing which demonstrates God (or gods) exists. Obviously nothing that points to mysteries or *possibly* God’s doing… evidence that demonstrates definitively that God exists. This is the only way to show that atheism (non belief in gods) is not the justified position.
I, in turn, will explain why anything you present doesn’t demonstrate that god exists.
Or you could just cut through the bs and admit atheism is the justified position and belief is not.
Notice how Artie does not specifically state what he will accept as evidence of God existing?
Instead, Artie gives some vague criteria and also shows that he really isn’t interested in having any evidence of God existing.
Artie, in his last paragraph states his position: “Or you could just cut through the bs and admit atheism is the justified position and belief is not.”
Like most atheists, Artie doesn’t think he has a belief in anything. Yet, everyone has a belief in something.
Atheists’ have a primary belief in a “nonbelief” of God.
At this point regardless of the atheist’s position, you as a follower of Christ Jesus must respond in love.
My reply to Artie’s email:
Happy to respond.
So you saying that, once you have evidence Christ Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and He suffered and died on a cross for your sins (you knowingly doing wrong) and that He rose from death providing to you the means to be forever in Heaven with Him, that you’d repent of your sins and accept Christ Jesus as your Savior?
Artie’s reply to me concerning once he had evidence about his accepting Christ Jesus:
I hardly said that… I would believe that said divinity exists & be a theist. I have grave misgivings about accepting the supposed benevolent character of your god myth though. The bible depicts a beyond horrible being.
You are faaaar from proving this however. You can’t even demonstrate a higher power or designer, let alone your favorite myth.
Please go for it though!
Again, regardless of the atheist’s position, you as a follower of Christ Jesus must respond in love.
Some atheists will reply that with evidence of Christ Jesus, that they’d repent and take Him as Savior. Others like Artie however, don’t. Artie made it clear that he is not interested in following Christ Jesus and thus is not looking for evidence of God existing and loving him.
Knowing Artie’s position, at this point I start pointing out Biblical truths and to Artie what it is he actually believes.
My reply to Artie having evidence of Christ Jesus and yet him not accepting Christ Jesus as Savior:
Artie, I don’t have to prove God’s existence with any evidence… He’s already done that.
Your choice of not wanting to accept Christ Jesus as your Savior even after conclusive evidence is provided to you, shows that you are not interested in evidence proving God’s existence.
Thus, let’s move on to your claim that, “atheism is the justified position and belief is not” and you prove to me why you claim atheism is the justified position. Please answer these two simple yes or no questions:
- Do atheists know everything?
- Could God exist?
Have a great night and sweet dreams!
Artie’s reply to my email:
There is no standing evidence that God exists. Certainly no “conclusive evidence”… That’s pure bullpucky. If there was you would present it directly and I would have to assess it. You didn’t even try, you just claimed there was. That is intellectual dishonesty, plain and simple.
If its not dishonesty, then present your best evidence anf STOP DODGING! Until you do believing is not supported by evidence and is not justified… therefore not believing, atheism, is justified. Simple logic.
These answers don’t show that a god exists, so believing is still not justified. Faeries might exist too, but there’s no good reason to believe in them.
I’m extremely let down by your utter failure here. I don’t know why, but I kind of expected a challenge. Of course I should have expected this dancing & dodging by your standard content.
Feel free to step up and try again… no more dancing though… bring only evidence & integrity.
Oh and answer these:
- Do believers know everything?
- Could God not exist… & you are just being misled?
Notice how Artie dismisses the evidence God has clearly provided to everyone?
Read Romans 1:18-32, to see how God describes atheists.
At this point, I more clearly point out to Artie his belief and how he has chosen to exclude any and all evidence of God. I also point out to Artie how he has stacked the deck in his favor in how he posed his, “Theist Challenge.” And, I point out how he is misleading himself.
My reply to Artie:
Answers to your questions to me:
- Believers (followers of Christ Jesus ‘Christians’) don’t know everything… no one but God knows everything.
- God cannot, not exist. If God did not exist, there would be nothing (no you or me or anything). God created EVERYTHING (universe, earth, life, physics, mathematics, order, etc.) and God provides to us everything we need to live.
Getting back to your original query:
1) Artie, you’ve not stated specifically what evidence you would accept of God’s existence (you gave some vague criteria but no specifics on what actual evidence you’d accept). In a case of law within a courtroom, the law of evidence encompasses the rules and legal principles that govern the proof of facts in a legal proceeding. Evidence must conform to a number of rules and restrictions to be admissible. The rules and legal principles that govern the proof of facts include inadmissible and admissible evidence at the discretion of the trial judge (you in this case are the trial judge). Until you specifically state and define what evidence you will accept and what evidence you will not accept, your ‘challenge’ is moot.
2) Artie, you clearly stated that you’d not accept Christ Jesus as your Savior. Even after conclusive evidence is provided to you that He exists and that He suffered and died on a cross for your sins then rose from death for you to be able to be in Heaven forever with Him, you said you demur in wanting to know Him and take Him as your Savior
3) Artie, you said that you chose not to be forever in Heaven with God even knowing He exists and that He loves you.
Thus Artie, have clearly stated your choice; 1) you are not interested in having any evidence proving God’s existence and His love for you 2) you don’t want to know God and experience His love for you and 3) you don’t want to be with God now or forever in Heaven.
Artie, you per your answers to my two questions to you confirm that are an agnostic. You chose to not believe in God and you admit that God may exist. You Artie, per your answers are not an atheist who believes there is no God. Artie, you just chose to not believe in God. It’s your choice to make, no one is stopping you from making it.
You Artie, are misleading yourself. When you yourself admit that God may indeed exist and yet you still chose not to honestly pursue the truth, you are fooling yourself into non-rational thinking. Non-rational thinking meaning why would anyone rationally thinking not chose to seek out God and be forever in Heaven with the God who created EVERYTHING including you and me?
Victor a.k.a. GospelToday
Artie’s reply to me:
The evidence I will consider & assess is the evidence you deem most convincing. I cannot in good form dictatate or restrict the type of evidence you may submit. So give me your best and stop making excuses before letting me assess it. In court both sides submit everything they think will prove their case.
Unless you prove the universe could not have formed without god, then the possibility remains that he didn’t do it and doesn’t exist. Its intellectually dishonest to say the universe requires god when no evidence suggests that he is required.
Yes a god type being (or faeries) could exist in the universe somewhere. Admitting that doesn’t make it likely or even believable. Yes humans can’t know for sure (agnostic) but if we choose to not believe in them, then that nonbelief is atheism. This is widely agreed… your rejection of the definition matters not.
If you prove Jesus was divine & still is… I will believe he exists, but I still get to choose if I will accept that his threat & offer is real. Get to proving it already. Lol.
I’m waiting for you to get over all your dishonest distractions and actually present evidence to justify your belief. I still sit comfortably over here, perfectly justified in my atheism.
Hope you actually have something to offer up after all this dodging.
Notice again how Artie doesn’t give specific evidence that he will accept of God existing?
Notice how Artie wants me to prove the universe was created by God?
Notice how Artie rejects being an agnostic when he actually stated that God may exist?
Notice how Artie calls me dishonest?
Notice how Artie denies Christ Jesus’ divinity?
Notice how Artie makes the true statement that it is up to him to choose if he will accept Christ Jesus as his Savior?
My reply to Artie:
Artie, you’ve already rejected all of “the evidence” God, Himself has provided to you.
If as you claim atheism is the justified position, what makes it justified?
From where does the term, “justified” get its meaning if atheism is the justified position? Is this term, “justified” a term that is absolute in its meaning and definition which has never changed over time? Or, is the term, “justified” relative in its meaning and definition and changes over time?
Artie’s reply to me:
I don’t recognize any evidence (or anything) as being from God. That’s why I ask you what you consider evidence that demonstrates god. You seem to have none beyond “my magic myth’s evidence is my evidence”. Its nonsensical & childish.
Atheism (not believing god claims) is the justified position because theism (believing god claims) is unsupported, unbacked, unevidenced & unfounded by any and all accounts of evidence or reasoning. By no means or methods is theism therefore a justifiable conclusion by the evidence… so, therefore, not believing is perfectly warranted & justified. This is VERY straight forward and clear.
You need to justify your position (belief) to show that atheism (not believing) not justified. It CAN’T be made clearer. Stop dragging out excuses and justify your position. Thus far you haven’t even come close. All you’ve done is claim I reject conclusive evidence, while having presented none for me to reject. This is EXTREMELY DISHONEST … but is exactly why I came to you… your content behaves exactly like you are now… lies and dodges. Truly sad and childish.
Atheism remains the justified position. #win
Notice how Artie again has dismissed all the evidence of God existing?
Notice how Artie claims that following Christ Jesus is nonsensical and childish?
Notice how Artie makes claims that atheism is the justified position?
Notice how Artie now calls me, “EXTREMELY DISHONEST” and that I’m lying and dodging his “Theist Challenge?”
Notice how Artie did not define the term, justified?
I point out to Artie his belief and bias.
My reply to Artie:
Exactly Artie, you; “…don’t recognize any evidence (or anything) as being from God.” Thus you as the judge have chosen to exclude all evidence and you don’t allow any evidence pointing to God existing.
Even though you cannot even come close to proving God didn’t create EVERYTHING including you and me, you chose to not, “… recognize any evidence (or anything) as being from God.” Thus, your position Artie, is one of denial rather than reason.
Your claim that atheism is supported is actually contradictory due to atheism not having any evidence that God did not create EVERYTHING. You’ve admitted that atheists don’t know everything. Thus, atheists are deluding themselves when they claim the atheist position is the justified position because there’s no evidence that God didn’t create EVERYTHING.
Again Artie, from where does the term, “justified” you use get its meaning if atheism is the justified position? Is this term, “justified” a term that is absolute in its meaning and definition which has never changed over time? Or, is the term, “justified” relative in its meaning and definition and changes over time?
Artie’s reply to me:
“Exactly Artie, you; “…don’t recognize any evidence (or anything) as being from God.” Thus you as the judge have chosen to exclude all evidence and you don’t allow any evidence pointing to God existing. ”
**People claiming god did something is INTERPRETATION, not evidence. YOU need to demonstrate this to be true. You have not in the slightest.
“Even though you cannot even come close to proving God didn’t create EVERYTHING including you and me, you chose to not, “… recognize any evidence (or anything) as being from God.” Thus, your position Artie, is one of denial rather than reason.”
**I can imagine thousands of mythical causes that you , by your logic, are in denial about accepting evidence interpreted toward. You would demand I prove the faerie king is the cause of all that i claim you are in denial about. If you reject that logic, then please prove the faerie king didn’t do these things you claim god did. In short, your favorite myth isn’t the default of all mysteries & myths. If you claim an unproven myth did something, step up and prove it. Don’t fallaciously claim a myth is the cause and shout that all doubters are in denial because they cant disprove it. That nonsense is shockingly illogical for an adult.
“Your claim that atheism is supported is actually contradictory due to atheism not having any evidence that God did not create EVERYTHING. You’ve admitted that atheists don’t know everything. Thus, atheists are deluding themselves when they claim the atheist position is the justified position because there’s no evidence that God didn’t create EVERYTHING.”
** False. Justified positions are such because there is either evidence or reason supporting it… or because there is none supporting the opposite position. Not being able to disprove that the faerie king exists doesn’t give validity to believing it… otherwise by your logic, the thousands of myths we can’t disprove are somehow validated & somehow support belief. Its utterly absurd & nonsensical.
Again I will ask for specific evidence you feel demonstrates that God exists. Please be specific. I will then assess it and explain why it doesn’t demonstrate God. If it doesn’t demonstrate God, then only nonbelief in gods is justified. This is VERY simple. I find it amazing that you can’t even provide a single example of evidence to justify your belief. Not one.
All you have done is justify my position with constant dodging. Its laughable.
Notice how Artie rehashes the same atheist straw man claims and denials about God. He again does not define “justified” and continues to claim that you and I as followers of Christ Jesus have to prove that God exists?
Remember, atheists know God exist. God has made it clear to them just as He’s made it clear to everyone and to those who follow Christ Jesus.
My reply to Artie:
Artie, you are obsessed in trying to confirm your position to me… why do you (and other atheists like you) get so consumed and try to confirm your positon to those who know and have a personal relationship with the one and only God who is described in the Bible?
Artie’s reply to me:
Pathetic. Im allowed to defend my position & define it. That’s perfectly valid.
Especially when you desperately deny & reject it. Its extremely immature & ignorant to blame me for defending a position that you refuse to let me define or hold. That is beyond childish.
Still wondering if you have the integrity to put up evidence at all. I doubt it.
Notice how Artie has again denied all the evidence of God?
Notice how Artie has questioned my integrity?
My reply to Artie:
Artie, I’m not placing any blame on you. I don’t deny or reject your position… you are an atheist and you have chosen to not believe in God. It’s your God given free will choice to make and I cannot deny you of that or any other choice you make.
You’ve already stated clearly that you reject all evidence of God… so why do you continue to ask for it?
Artie’s reply to me:
I test my position daily & don’t just assume I am right like you do. I don’t reject all possible evidence for gods, I just reject or have refuted everything I have seen thus far. So I ask those who seem sure what evidence they have to be so sure. Most provide something unless they have already accepted that there is no evidence & just use faith. You provide none, while claiming its conclusive, which is just an obvious, childish dodge.
The point of it all is 2 pronged. I get to know that I have done everything to find truth and I know my position is justified. The other thing is that the believer I speak to gets to realize (if they have integrity) that they don’t hold a justified position. Even if they don’t like that realization, they have found some truth about their beliefs.
I quite enjoy that you quite obviously feel the need to dodge to avoid the fact that I am right… that atheism is justified & belief is not. If you had evidence you would share it, but you just dodge & deny. You prove nothing in the end, but pretend you have. Laughable.
Atheist Win! Every time.
Notice how Artie states that I assume that I am right about my belief and that I don’t test it? Artie doesn’t know what the Bible teaches us. James 1:2-4; 2 Corinthians 13:5
Notice how Artie again doesn’t define, “justified?” Artie, knows that if he actually defined, “justified” that he would be admitting his loss.
Notice how Artie claims that, “Atheist Win! Every time.” as a congratulatory remark to himself?
I point out to Artie how he has not shown that God didn’t create everything. And again request for his definition of, “justified.”
My reply to Artie:
Artie, when I stated that God (as described in the Bible) created EVERYTHING, that’s evidence of God existing. You reject EVERYTHING as evidence for God.
You have given no proof that God didn’t create EVERYTHING nor have you even given the definition of “justified” to me and if “justified” as you define it is relative or absolute in its definition.
So, without a definition from you of “justified” and if it’s relative or absolute in its definition, I cannot see how you can make the claim you do.
Artie’s reply to me:
Noooo lol. The bible claims that god created everything, it doesn’t demonstrate it as fact. Wow. Is THAT your evidence?! Really? “The bible says so”?! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! I don’t reject evidence, I reject the unverified claims of a myth book or people like you. And its PERFECTLY VALID to reject biased & baseless interpretations of nature, based on a myth.
I don’t have to prove that inteligent power slime, faeries, cosmic slugs or gods DIDN’T create everything. Not proving that they didn’t DOESN’T JUSTIFY BELIEF IN THEM. Nobody has to disprove what nobody has proven. Completely broken logic there bud.
I have defined what I mean by justified over and over. At this point you don’t deserve further instructing from me. You are a demonstrated fallacious ignoramus and have no clue about what a justified belief is. Or you are desperate to redefine it because you can’t defeat it.
Its not my problem that you don’t grasp some very common sense stuff… its all your own failings and delusion.
Thanks again Victor for justifying my position, by failing to justify yours. You are no different than all the others. You all fail miserably every time.
Good luck with your delusion. Seek help.
Notice how again Artie rejects outright that God created everything? He even laughs about rejecting God creating everything and calls the Bible a book of myths.
Notice how Artie then claims victory and that I justified his position? Artie never gave a definition of the term, justified!
Notice how Artie says that I am deluded?
I more clearly and distinctly point out to Artie what it is he claims to believe.
My reply to Artie:
Artie, turning to name calling and belittling shows how little you believe in what you claim.
Do you really believe that the universe just popped into existence without any intervention?
Do you really believe life came from rocks on its own and without any intervention?
Artie’s reply to me:
“Artie, turning to name calling and belittling shows how little you believe in what you claim. ”
** Me describing what you have demonstrated yourself to be, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW SOLIDLY I HOLD MY POSITION OR HOW FIRMLY I BELIEVE YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. Thats more fallacious bullshit from you. A blatant non sequitur.
“Do you really believe that the universe just popped into existence without any intervention?”
** No. That remains a possibility however, as described by the smartest scientists on the planet. So does a multiverse, so does intelligent power slime, so do naturally abundant uncaused causes, so does the faerie king, so do other mythical beings. I simply haven’t picked one or been brainwashed into believing one is true. You have.
“Do you really believe life came from rocks on its own and without any intervention?”
** From rocks? No. Nobody believes life came from rocks. Is that how you justify your magic version of lifes origins? … to convince yourself that nonmagic believers actually believe some distorted strawman claim of science?! How dishonest is that?! Wow!
Thus far NO SCIENCE findings have shown that abiogenesis & the big bang could not have happened naturally. Even if we did have such info, there would then be millions of imagined possibile causes & not just one default manmade myth like yours.
So even in such a case, atheism is STILL a justified position, because god still would not be demonstrated.
You fail yet again. Atheism remains justified.
PS- how about you stop asking pointless questions and pose ACTUAL EVIDENCE that God exists?
Notice how Artie is getting more and more upset and typing in ALL CAPS (basically yelling)?
Atheists do that when they have lost. They know that they’ve dug themselves into a huge hole that they cannot get out of so they turn to intimidations. Yet they are so used to using intimidation tactics it comes natural for them… many times it works for them because whomever it is the atheist is talking with doesn’t call upon God for His wisdom, knowledge, and strength. Don’t fall for atheist intimidation tactics.
Call upon God to assist you and bring to you His wisdom, knowledge and strength to fight the temptation to attack the atheist using the same tactics as the atheist. Allow God to speak Truth through you using His wisdom and knowledge.
In this reply to Artie, I clearly and simply describe and debunk his “big bang” and “abiogenesis” claims. I basically, blew up his atheist world and hopefully got him thinking of accepting Christ Jesus as his Savior.
Simply put, I put a pebble in his shoe and I pray that Artie choses to listen to God calling him.
My reply to Artie:
Artie, let’s go to your claims you made in email to me and see what you really believe…
“Thus far NO SCIENCE findings have shown that abiogenesis & the big bang could not have happened naturally.”
The “big bang” just happened from nothing and by nothing per atheist scientists. If something was there, from where did it come? For what reason(s) did it “bang” if nothing was there? For the atheist, everything is possible but God doing it.
Abiogenesis… let’s look at it closely. After the “big bang” everything per atheist scientists was very hot some X billion years ago on earth. The very hot earth started cooling and the molten lava started to harden forming various rocks. The cooling then started condensation which came heavy rains which beat some of the rocks into smaller and smaller particles, These smaller and smaller particles per atheist scientists then pooled some Y billion years ago and started mixing together. Then for whatever possible reason but God doing it, these pooled mixed together particles which derived directly from cooled down molten rocks, came to life…
Yea, I see how the atheist position is justified… just claim that God didn’t do it.
Up until my last email to Artie, he was quick to reply over the days of our exchange. I’ve had no reply back from Artie and it’s been after well over a week from my last email to him. If he does reply, I’ll amend this post to reflect our new exchanges.
I pray that Artie has opened his eyes and heart to the knowledge of God’s love for him and that he repents of his sins and accepts Christ Jesus as his Savior. I pray in Christ Jesus’ name, Amen