A rock solid argument for atheism toward the biblical God; Really?
LiveFreeOrDie1985 made a series of comments on one of my YouTube videos which I consolidated here so that I can give answer to per LiveFreeOrDie1985’s request of me to reply.
Quote: I have a rock solid argument for atheism toward the biblical God. I would like to hear your opinions on it please. I will make four assumptions on the biblical God. He is all knowing all powerful all loving and Just. Basically perfect. ok here is the argument. If God is the greatest possible good then if God had not created there would be nothing but the greatest possible good.
If for some reason God could not create a world without evil because of humans free will then if he was all good it should not have been created. For instance God made Adam and Eve in a perfect world they sinned and messed up the world and brought pain and suffering in. If God was all knowing and all Good why were humans created in the first place.
It’s the same as a parent giving a loaded handgun to the baby knowing they will shoot themselves or someone else.
Lastly what makes you think everything in heaven will be great if you still have free will???
After all the angels according to the bible rebelled against a perfect God indicating free will in heaven. You see what I am getting at if suffering is from free will of man and man has free will in heaven how will there be no suffering??????? :End Quote
My reply to LiveFreeOrDie1985
LiveFreeOrDie1985, your so claimed “rock solid argument for atheism toward the biblical God” is a really weak argument to anyone who has actually read the Bible in context. So either you misrepresent God purposefully or you are purely ignorant about what the Bible teaches about God. I’ll assume that you need to actually read the Bible instead of taking hearsay from people as you show your ignorance about it greatly with the way you phrased your questions about God.
The four assumptions LiveFreeOrDie1985 made about God are true; “He is all knowing all powerful all loving and Just.” God is “perfect” instead of “basically perfect” as you stated. “God is the Rock, His works are perfect, and all His ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is He.” Deuteronomy 32:4 NIV
LiveFreeOrDie1985’s states: “If God is the greatest possible good then if God had not created there would be nothing but the greatest possible good.”
God, being the greatest possible good, if God had not created anything there would be nothing but the greatest possible good. So LiveFreeOrDie1985’s statement is true.
Yet God did create the heavens and earth and we know that when He finished creating everything, it was all very good. Genesis 1:31 “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. …”
LiveFreeOrDie1985 then states: “If for some reason God could not create a world without evil because of humans free will then if he was all good it should not have been created.”
God could have created a world without evil yet to do so God could not have given to anyone “free will” because for anybody having “free will” means that anybody can freely choose to do evil.
LiveFreeOrDie1985 then states: “For instance God made Adam and Eve in a perfect world they sinned and messed up the world and brought pain and suffering in.”
True, God made Adam and Eve knowing that they would each sin, doing the single request God made of them to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they each ate from it; Genesis 3. This did indeed bring in pain and suffering; Genesis 3:16-19 ‘To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.’
LiveFreeOrDie1985 then asks: “If God was all knowing and all Good why were humans created in the first place.”
Good question, why did God who knows everything that ever was, is, and will be, create you and me in the first place when God knows that we knowingly do things we know we shouldn’t do and we knowingly don’t do things we know we should do? You can ask the same question of a man and woman who plan to have and have a child or more. Why do a man and woman knowingly plan to have a child and have a child when they know their child will knowingly do things they know that they shouldn’t do and knowingly not do things they know they should do? Why do a man and a woman knowingly plan to have a child knowing that their child may grow up and not love them? For the same reasons God planned and created you and me; God wanted to create us and because of love. God loves us.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." John 3:16-21
LiveFreeOrDie1985 then states: “It’s the same as a parent giving a loaded handgun to the baby knowing they will shoot themselves or someone else.”
No LiveFreeOrDie1985, parents knowingly planning and having children the parents know will disobey them isn’t the same as parents giving a loaded handgun to their baby. Knowingly planning and having children is done because the parents can do it and done in love. Parents giving a loaded handgun to a baby is stupidity on the part of the parents and does not relate to why a man and woman knowingly bring a child into this world whom they both know will knowingly do things the child knows it shouldn’t and will knowingly not do things the child knows it should do.
God could have made each of us like robots i.e., without free will yet He didn’t. God gave to us free will to choose to knowingly do what we know is good and free will to knowingly do what we know is evil because He loves us and God loves each and every one of us equally, regardless of if we love Him or not. Just like loving parents love their child who has knowingly done something wrong or evil still love their child and desires that their child not knowingly do evil, God loves us and desires for us to not do evil.
Because you and I knowingly do evil things, doesn’t make it the same as if God gave to either of us a loaded handgun. And, even if God had given to either of us a loaded handgun, it would be your and my free will at work in what we shot with it or not and your and my fault if we shot someone with it and not God’s fault. Just as good parents correct their child for knowingly doing something wrong or knowingly not doing something right, God corrects us through the consequences of pain and suffering we experience and cause other people to experience.
LiveFreeOrDie1985 at this point asks:
“Lastly what makes you think everything in heaven will be great if you still have free will???”
Another good question. This is where my faith in God comes in. From what is taught to us in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is of how God knew from the beginning that mankind using their free will would sin. And that God from the beginning had a plan in place by which you and I could using our free will be redeemed. And by God allowing our sin to happen He was able to show the redeemed how much He loved us by His sacrificing His only begotten Son for us.
“For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” Romans 14:17
LiveFreeOrDie1985 ends with these statements: “After all the angels according to the bible rebelled against a perfect God indicating free will in heaven. You see what I am getting at if suffering is from free will of man and man has free will in heaven how will there be no suffering???????”
Another good question indeed. First of all, we know from Genesis 1:31 that God created everything to be “very good.” Everything that God made was originally perfect! Unfortunately, Lucifer sinned by rebelling against God at some point after the Creation Week (Isaiah 14:12–15). Adam and Eve also sinned by rebelling against God (Genesis 3:1–11). They chose to eat the forbidden fruit, and as a result, the earth was cursed because of sin (Genesis 3:17–18). We live in a world affected by the consequences of their sin. Of course, God knew that all this would happen.
Colossian 1:16 tells us that God created all things “through Him and for Him.”
Basically God created Lucifer, the angels that chose to rebel, and people because He wanted to. Let’s explore this a further so that we can better understand it.
Not only did God create all things, but he also gave angels and people the freedom to rebel against Him. And rebel is exactly what Lucifer, the fallen angels, Adam, Eve, and all of us have done. We (you and me) have sinned and rebelled against God, so we are all guilty.
We know that God is not pleased when someone who rejects Him dies (Ezekiel 33:11), but it is precious in His sight when one someone who accepts Him passes away (Psalm 116:15). There is also joy in the presence of angels when a sinner (like you and me) repents (Luke 15:10). Why? Obviously, God does not want to sentence someone to eternity apart from Him (2 Peter 3:9), but He is also holy and just, so God does if the person chooses to be separated from Him. Since God is love (1 John 4:8, 16), perhaps He enjoys (pleasures in) showering His love on His creation.
We must always keep in mind that God created a perfect world (Genesis 1:31) and that we (you and me) are the ones who messed it up. So even though God knew Satan and 1/3 of the angels would rebel, and much of mankind would reject His offer of salvation, it is not God’s fault that they rebelled against Him.
Of course, sin and a broken world are not the end of story. Let’s not forget that someday God promises that He will make a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1). There will be no more pain, tears or death (Rev. 21:4). Everyone who has asked Jesus to save them from the penalty of their sins will be with Him for all eternity (Rev. 22:1–5)!
We also need to realize that there are so many things which we do not understand and never will fully understand. God has a wonderful plan that stretches into eternity, full of things that we “do not know.” It is important to remember that God is in control and that He promises to work everything (even the bad things) together for the good of those who love Him. Sometimes we need to trust Him and walk in faith.
And thus my faith is in God’s promise of salvation through His only begotten Son Jesus for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Romans 10:13)" along with my faith in God keeping His other promises of a new heaven and new earth, no more pain, tears, suffering, and death assures me that once I am in Heaven with God, that I’m there to stay.
“Why” you ask, “do you have faith that God will fulfill His promises in the first place, Victor?” I have faith in God fulfilling the promises He has made because God has shown a rock solid history of fulfilling the promises He has made all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament. From Genesis to Revelation, God has proven worthy of fulfilling every promise He has made. That’s why.
Are you ready for that day? Have you accepted Christ’s redeeming work on the cross? It is a free gift! If you want to receive Christ’s free gift of salvation, take seriously John 3:16 (above) which reveals God’s resolve, it states that God loves the world (you and me) and that He sent His Son to die on a cross, because of this love He has for you and me.
“Why” you ask, “did God have to send His only begotten Son to earth to die for us? Could God not just let everyone into Heaven?”
I’ll answer the second question first. As we talked about already, not everyone wants to be with God. Remember, Satan and 1/3 of the angels decided to not be with God and God let them rebel (use their free will) against His desire for them to stay with Him. Not every human being wants to be with God. I have had many people tell me that they don’t want anything to do with God. Because God loves everyone equally, and because God is just in every way, God allows those people who do not want to be with Him, to not be with Him. If God were to force someone into Heaven against his/her will who did not want to be in Heaven, that would neither be loving nor just to the person not wanting to be with God. So, God at the time of judgment will tell those people who do not want to be with Him in Heaven that their will, will be done, not His.
The first question’s answer we’ve touched on a few times already. God loves us very much and made a way for us to become is children. God sent His only Son, Christ Jesus, to earth (John 3:16). Jesus was both fully God and fully human (like you and me) yet while He grew up, Jesus didn’t act out against His heavenly Father; Jesus was always obedient to God and never sinned. Jesus told people how they could have a right relationship with God and become His children.
God said that death was the punishment for sin and that eternal life is in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:23). So, “Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God. (Hebrews 9:27)”
Basically, God set down the consequences for our wrongful behaviors (death) and how we can be redeemed from an eternal separation from Him through Christ Jesus.
Now, you ask, “Why do we have to die?” Again, we have to die once because we have each sinned and the punishment for sin is death.
You ask, “But how does Christ Jesus’ death count towards our having eternal life?” The death Christ Jesus died, He died to sin once for everyone which was a unique event that need not be repeated; but Jesus’ life, He keeps on living for God. (Romans 6:10)” What this means for you and me is that if we place our trust in Christ Jesus’ physical death and physical resurrection from death as actually happening, you and I are at that time accepted by God the Father as pure and holy just as Christ Jesus truly is because God accepts us through Christ Jesus’ perfectness and not as we truly are which is sinful.
“Yet could God not just let those people who accept Him into Heaven without having Christ Jesus go through all of that pain, suffering, death?” Not as explained in the Bible because as we know, God is perfectly just and being so it is against God’s nature to have anything not perfect near Him. The only way for you and me to be in Heaven with God would be if we were perfect (which we are not) or for God to have some way for us to be accepted as being perfect (even though we are not).
So because of our not being perfect, God sent His only Son, Christ Jesus, to earth (John 3:16). Jesus was both fully God and fully human (like you and me) yet while He grew up, Jesus didn’t act out against His heavenly Father; Jesus was always obedient to God and never sinned. Jesus told people how they could have a right relationship with God and become His children.
Are you ready for that day, the day you die? Have you accepted Christ’s redeeming work on the cross? It is a free gift! If you want to receive Christ’s free gift of salvation, take seriously John 3:16 (above) which reveals God’s resolve, it states that God loves the world (you and me) and that He sent His Son to die on a cross, because of this love He has for you and me.
To take seriously John 3:16 you need to stop sinning and not plan to sin and accept Christ Jesus as full payment for your sins. Call upon Christ Jesus to save you because everyone who calls upon Christ Jesus to help them will be saved from eternal death; for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord Christ Jesus will be saved!” Romans 10:13
Lolz. All nonsense. The bible is a claim written by men and has nothing to do with any evidence for a god at all. When you prove your claims and collect your Nobel Prize, please alert the media.
Michael, knowing God loves you and wants you to be forever with Him in Heaven, would you love and want to be forever in Heaven with Him?