If there is the slightest possibility of God existing and that He has sent His only begotten Son Jesus to be your savior from your transgressions, wouldn’t it be wise to investigate it for yourself?
If you had evidence beyond doubt that God exists as described in the Holy Bible and that He loves you and wants you to be in Heaven with Him forever, would you want to be in Heaven with Him too?
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Atheism – An Atheist’s Religious Denial of Faith in Their Beliefs

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An Atheist’s Religious Denial of Faith in Their Beliefs


The worldview of atheists seems to be denial. First, there is the denial of atheists of their worldview actually being a worldview. Even though Atheists have started gathering together and celebrating their ‘Atheism’ with a comprehensive conception of how they want the world to be especially from their specific standpoint that all religions (including those people who follow Christ Jesus) should be disbanded so that all people become disciples of atheism, the many atheists I have encountered deny that they have a worldview. Even when these atheists are confronted with the “American Atheists Aims and Principles” which describes precisely the worldview that the American Atheists are aiming to achieve, the atheists I have encountered deny that there is a worldview in their organization of aims and principles.


The atheists I’ve encountered even deny that the set of fundamental beliefs listed in the guiding principles within the ”American Atheists Aims and Principles” is a creed that they believe. It is clear that the “American Atheists” being a ‘not for profit’ organization, holds atheism as their cause of being and as a principle of their life in which they hold a system of belief that God does not exist. The “American Atheists” seem to hold to that belief with extreme vigor and energy. In fact however, the atheists I’ve encountered deny that atheism can be properly described as a religion to which one has faith in their belief of God’s nonexistence.


Like their denial of God, atheists are also in adamant denial that their non-belief in God is a religious endeavor. Atheism in fact is a lot of ‘denial’ because they not only deny that they deny that God exists, they deny that they believe that God does not exist. Many atheists also deny that they have any faith in their denial that God exists yet many of them will deny that statement is true because many of them also deny that they have faith in their thinking that God does not exist and also many deny that truth exists. Thus in their saying that truth does not exist, they can deny that it is true that their non-belief in God requires of them any actual thought over their motto of, “Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.” It seems as if atheists have something against both, collecting stamps and Christ Jesus.


Most of the atheists I’ve encountered seem to have a ‘belief’ that is especially strong in what they deny and they show a conviction in that ‘there isn’t any good reason for [them] to acknowledge’ Christ Jesus. A quote from a recent post an atheist replied to me with that describes their understanding of atheism: “Denying a belief does not constitute a belief or set of beliefs itself – it’s simply not accepting the assertion of theology which states there is a god.” Notice that they deny even that say that they ‘believe’ in their denial of God in that they just do not accept the assertion that God exists.


Yet when it comes to getting them to actually admit that they have ‘faith’ in their ‘belief’ they deny that they do. By the definition in the Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary, faith is: something that is believed especially with strong conviction however all the atheists I’ve asked about their belief that God does not exist by their own testimonies, they deny to actually have strong convictions in their denial of God yet they say unwaveringly that they deny that Christ Jesus is God. This denial atheists do is such a deep rooted stronghold in their existence that I often think that they do not actually think things through that they say because of all the contradiction within their statements.


What is Atheism to an Atheist?


We have seen how atheists deny the dictionary definitions of words to suit their own denials of their denial of their denying that they have a worldview, denial that atheism is a religion, denying any belief in their denying too any faith in their belief of which too they deny in their denial of Christ Jesus. Atheism as I have learned is a pure system of denial in which the atheists deny everything including truth and morals so that they can do so to fit their desires even including denial of dictionary definitions of common everyday words.


So what exactly is atheism to an atheist? Just the other day I had a discussion with a number of atheists on a couple of very popular atheist blogs who adamantly denied that truth exists and insisted that truth changes over time. These atheists also adamantly prescribed to morals as being like feelings which can change over time. One of the atheists during these discussions stated what atheism is; “Atheism is not a religion, there is no faith involved in disbelieving things which have not been demonstrated. We have no rules, atheism is only the lack of a belief in gods.”


The “American Atheists” web site writes, “Atheism does not have a doctrine at all and atheists certainly do not ‘deny’ that gods exist. Denial is the ‘refusal to believe.’ Atheism does not ‘know there is a god but refuse to believe in him’ (or her).” Also, they state on their web site that Atheism is not a belief system or religion by saying, “Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, from the original Greek meaning of ‘without gods.’”


The Truth Comes Out in Atheists’ Actions


From all the evidence I’ve seen, read and have heard from talking with atheists, many of them are not even interested in knowing the truth. Given a method for them to honestly seek and find the truth about Christ Jesus the atheists I have encountered could care less and mock and scoff at it. To me, their mocking and scoffing seems proof enough to me of their refusal to believe that God exists thus they deny, that God exists and that they freely choose to not even find out the truth for themselves.


Many of the atheists I’ve encountered could care less if God truly exists or not because these atheists are only interested in not having any rules to follow and they have focused their attention solely on themselves in their own desires. They in their denial are overlooking the fact that their main focus in lacking a belief in gods is opening them up to a huge problem in that their primary repudiation is focused against Christ Jesus. Yes, they say that they lack belief in any gods yet to their denial is focused squarely upon on the one true God, Christ Jesus.


With denial a huge central part of atheism, in many ways with denial being such a major aspect of an atheist’s way of life, many of them feel left out of the main stream of life in that they want to have celebrations and holidays and such. Because most all major holidays are of some religious aspect with the very primary ones being Christmas celebrating Christ Jesus’ birth; Jewish Passover celebrating death passing over of the first born of those who believed in God’s word including those people following Jesus Christ in taking Communion, Christ Jesus’ last supper prior to His suffering and being placed on a cross to die for our sins; and Easter the celebration of Christ Jesus’ physical rise from death on a cross, atheists are at a loss for any major holiday.


To compensate for their lack of a religious holiday, many atheists have turned to a number of rituals that they have started performing so to fill this desire they have void due to their lack of wanting to know the truth. Of course the rituals that these atheists came up with are a direct mockery of anything that followers of our Lord Christ Jesus use to display their respect for Him. And I’m sure true to their religious denial of everything else, they will deny that anything they are doing is a ritual or religious in nature denying too that Christ Jesus is their primary target.





Although they deny it, atheism is being more and more like a true religion with religious rituals and ceremonies. The newest thing that atheists are performing is a religious ritual they call “de-baptism.” A de-baptism is done at an atheist’s “the Atheist Coming Out” ceremony when a clerical elder of the of atheists dressed in a special robe uses a hairdryer to officially “de-baptize” those who parade by the clerical elder while the clerical elder declares in a chant like manner says that they will not go to Hell and now the person walking by has been “de-baptized” seemingly meaning that they are now officially in the atheist pseudo-church of atheism. Even more evidence of atheism being a true religion comes from their religious de-communion ritual they have also started. The de-communion table holds their “holy Root Beer and peanut butter & honey de-communion crackers.”


Another item of strong evidence pointing to atheism being a religion is the extravagant respect and admiration for and devotion to their symbol of the letter “A” which they hold in great esteem which they call, “Scarlet Letter.” This worship symbol they proudly and broadly display apparently as an idol. You will notice it in many places where atheists congregate as they display it proudly as though it was as significant as the cross that Christ Jesus was crucified upon. Here’s a tale of their “Scarlet Letter.”


AtheistScarletLetterA


Topping it all off is that the so stated, “New Atheists” calling it “Atheism 3.0” says that religion isn’t all that bad. Even though these New Atheists setting up their Atheism 3.0 religious activities still do not follow Christ Jesus, they do actually say that atheism is a form of religion needing to change the world and make it better. (Like what is their definition of “better” because getting an atheist to actually have a “fixed” definition of any word is as easy as giving a wild cat a bath in ice cold water.) Anyway, these atheists are at least more honest in the aspect of atheism being a religion than any I’ve had encounters with these last few months yet as atheists do not realize is that religion is not what following Christ Jesus is all about.


The Choice Is Only Yours and is a Once in A Lifetime Choice


Anyone who sincerely is interested in discovering the truth about the most important questions of life first must concern herself or himself with cultivating right thoughts about God. We only have one time on this earth to live our life. We only have one choice during our life to make that counts for an eternity. That one choice we each have to make is the one we each have to make to accept Jesus Christ as our savior or not.


There are only two options for us to choose from; one choice is that you can choose to believe that God does not exist and the second choice is the option to choose to see if God really does exist. That choice is yours to make and no one else’s to make for you. There is a time in each of our lives that we have to take responsibility for the choices we make. All choices have consequences and this choice is the most vital choice of your life.


If you are an atheist who is about to contact me about it being my burden of proof to prove to you God’s existence, don’t because that’s not how it works. Your apathy of knowing absolute truth is not my burden to bear. It is up to you to choose for yourself to take responsibility for yourself to know and accept absolute truth or not and it is not up to me or anyone else to choose for you nor is it up to me or anyone else to give to you the proof you need.


The proof you want of God’s existence is the proof you need and only you and God know what that is, not me nor anyone else knows but you and God. Some of the proof I needed to have a personal relationship with God is written in the following article if you choose to read about it. My Personal Relationship with Christ Jesus: http://tinyurl.com/yk8n6jb
There is only one path to God and that is through His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus. When Jesus was on earth he said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6) This was and is a very exclusive claim that Christ Jesus made. No other claim like this was made by Mohammad, Buddha, or any other religious leader. It is something very worth investigating because it has such great implications.


The people (disciples) who were following Christ Jesus who experienced Jesus’ physical body rise from being dead, went through great pain and suffering before they were martyred for their sticking with the fact that Christ Jesus actually did physically die and then physically arise from being dead when it would have been to their favor to have just said that it was all a fake. Unlike the so called martyrdom of people committing suicide with bombs strapped to them which also kills people around them, the disciples who were with Christ Jesus during His teachings and after His physical rise from death suffered cruel beatings, imprisonment, and execution for their commitment to their knowing that Jesus actually did physically rise from being dead to live again. At any point to save their life any one of these men who had followed Christ Jesus could have easily said that Jesus did not truly rise from the dead but not a one of them did because they knew for fact that Christ Jesus did rise from the dead to live thus giving to us all who truly place our trust in Christ Jesus the salvation from our sins to live with Him.
As an atheist, your apathy to not seek and find the absolute truth is a choice you make for yourself and you alone bear burden of on your own. For you to demand evidence from someone of God’s existence is showing just how much you do not want to know nor experience the evidence of God’s existence. Again, this is a choice you make to want to honestly know God or not and not my or anyone else’s responsibility to take for you.


It is Only Your Choice to Make


God respects our freedom. If and only if you love the truth with your heart, your mind, and your soul will you find the truth about God.


The choice to seek for the truth is a free choice. And all seekers find. The verses below come from the Holy Bible and each claim – that all seekers find God – are testable by experience, by experiment.


Deuteronomy 4:29 – But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.


Jeremiah 29:13 – You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.


Proverbs 8:17 – I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.


If you are honest about finding the truth, here is a way to see if Christianity is true or not. Tell Christ Jesus that you are seeking the truth. Ask Him to fulfill His promise that all who seek Him will find Him. In His own time, of course. He promised that you will find, but He did not promise a schedule. God’s a lover, not a train.


But; you may reply: I don’t even know whether Christ is God. I do not even know whether there is a God. That’s okay because you can pray the prayer of the skeptic:




Lord Jesus, I don’t know if you even exist. I am a skeptic. I doubt. I think you may be only a myth. I am however not certain, (at least when I’m completely honest with myself). So if you really do exist, and if you really did promise to reward all seekers, you must be hearing me now.


So I hereby declare myself a seeker, a seeker of the truth, whatever it is and wherever it is. I want to know the truth and live in the truth. If you are the truth, please help me.




If Christianity is true, God will answer your prayer. Such a prayer constitutes a scientifically fair test of the Christian “hypothesis” – that is, if you do not put any unfair restrictions on God, like demanding a miracle – your way not His – or certainty by tomorrow – your time, not His. The demand that God act like your servant is hardly a scientifically fair test of the hypothesis that there is a God who is your King.


But all this King asks for at first is honesty, not faking a faith you do not have. Honesty is a choice of the will – the choice to seek the truth no matter what or where. This is the most momentous choice you can make. It is the choice of light over darkness, ultimately heaven over hell.


Warning: If you honestly pray the skeptic’s prayer, it will change your life because you will experience the presence of God and at that time you will know without doubt that God exists and that He wants to have a loving, personal relationship with you. God will not force you to love Him back nor will He force you to accept His only begotten Son Christ Jesus as your savior. The choice is still up to you to either accept God’s love and Christ Jesus as your savior. I suggest that you make a wise choice.


Here are the definitions which atheists deny define atheism. You may have noted during the reading of this article how well each of these definitions fit with describing atheists, atheism and the activities that atheists are doing.


Idol
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idol
1
: a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god


Doctrine
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctrine%20
1 archaic : teaching, instruction
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief


Creed
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creed
1
: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2 : a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle


Ritual
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ritual%20
1
: of or relating to rites or a ritual : ceremonial <a ritual dance>
2 : according to religious law <ritual purity>
3 : done in accordance with social custom or normal protocol


Religious
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Religious
1
: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances <joined a religious order>
3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful


Religion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


Faith
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs


Worship
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship%20
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem


Worldview
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worldvi…
Worldview: weltanschauung
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weltans…
weltanschauung: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world especially from a specific standpoint


—————————-


BTW, the name “Scarlet Letter” for the “A” I did not name. I found the name at this website:


http://www.cafepress.com/TheAtheistShops/6878246

57 Responses

  1. Victor E. Pearson

    Sennekuyl, you stated about my site, ‘Your site is called finding truth today and yet when you are asked where is it, you tell the questioner to find it themselves. (picture a man pulling a “Is he for real?”’ To answer the question, yes, I am for real. I am really pointing people to the truth and I’m letting people know that they shouldn’t just believe me because I say to believe me. It is always up to the people really seeking truth to actually follow the pointers I give because I have no control over anyone’s choices but the ones I make for myself.
    Finding truth is difficult for some people because they really do not want to accept truth. It is always your and my choice to make to accept the truth or not. It is also your and my choice to actually test what is being said to actually be the truth or not. Many people have apathy to truth. Do you have an apathy to truth?
    Why do you think when you, “prayed desparately something like” the Skeptics Prayer that, “So far Yahweh seems to be pushing” you “away.” Something for you to think about: 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” http://findingtruthtoday.org/WantProofofGod.aspx
    May mercy, and peace, and love be multiplied to you! Jude 1:2
    Victor (aka @GospelToday)
    For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

  2. Sennekuyl

    “If Christianity is true, God will answer your prayer. Such a prayer constitutes a scientifically fair test of the Christian “hypothesis” – that is, if you do not put any unfair restrictions on God, like demanding a miracle – your way not His – or certainty by tomorrow – your time, not His. The demand that God act like your servant is hardly a scientifically fair test of the hypothesis that there is a God who is your King.”
    Hmmm… I prayed desparately something like that while I was still professing Christ as the (my) Lord and Saviour. So far Yahweh seems to be pushing me away. Someone once said, the problem with religion is you need a lifetime to prove it wrong…
    Besides, a better test is the one Jesus himself set; “By their fruits you shall know them.” If Christians can demonstrate that belief of Christ as their Saviour is universally effective in producing quantifiable actions are derived from the Fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22), and that people of other faiths and those without faith at all do not, in actuality, demonstrate anything approximating the Fruits, then we may be closer to a scientific test. I was unable to find a method to test this.
    What did appear evident to me is that; people who will do good, shall do good. People that want to be bad, shall be bad. And either can change their preference in a moment. It explains people’s morality better than any religious explanation I’ve seen and has removed as much bias as possible. So far, I’ve only been able to find groups that behave just like other groups of humans as would be expected by this proposition.
    *sigh* Your site is called finding truth today and yet when you are asked where is it, you tell the questioner to find it themselves. (picture a man pulling a “Is he for real?”

  3. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z nowhere have I said that Antony Flew is following Christ Jesus nor have I said that Antony Flew ever said that he was or is a Christian. Here you have taken my question about an honest search for the truth out of context by adding to it something which I never said. You have a huge problem with keeping things in context and it shows to me that your search for truth is not an honest one. I say this because you keep leaving things out or putting things in that do not apply to what is written.
    Have you read Antony Flew’s book, “There is a God” as I have? I guess not because if you had read it, you would see in it Antony Flew’s concluding reflections on page 213 which I quote here:
    “ I am very much impressed with Bishop Wright’s approach, which is absolutely fresh. He presents the case for Christianity as something new for the first time. This is enormously important, especially in the United Kingdom, where the Christian religion has virtually disappeared. It is absolutely wonderful, absolutely radical, and very powerful.
    Is it possible that there has been or can be divine revelation? As I said, you cannot limit the possibilities of omnipotence except to produce the logically impossible.
    Everything else is open to omnipotence.”
    Matthew 7:13-14 applies to your statement about 2/3 of the people not following Christ Jesus as stated by Jesus Himself:
    “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:13-14&version=NIV
    So I ask you thoughtcounts Z, are you as honest in your search for the truth as Antony Flew? Are you willing to keep the things you read in context and honestly seek the truth letting the facts lead you or are you just going to keep doing things your way showing your ignorance?
    http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/are-you-as-honest-in-your-search-for-the-truth-as-antony-flew-is.html

  4. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z you purposely disregard and take out of context the answer I gave to you in a previous comment about the question you asked about the passages.
    As the simple Thomas Jefferson example I gave to you shows that context is a requirement to properly understanding something being read, so too is the need for properly putting Bible verses into proper context not a red herring. What is a red herring is your continued ignorance of how to appropriately read a book in proper context. Your continued illiteracy with regard to reading a book in proper context is a choice you are making to prove some point you want to make yet in all due respect, it is only showing your lack of knowledge and your lack of wanting to understand.
    In answer to your questions about Jesus; Jesus did not lie nor does Jesus lie. There are no contradictions in the Bible. If you take out of context something in any coherent book you can make it state anything you want. If however, you properly keep a coherent book (including the Bible) in proper context as I have shown to you in the Thomas Jefferson example and the proper context of the verses you questioned, it is a coherent and consistent book.
    If you are honestly wanting to find the truth, you must read all books in context otherwise you are deluding yourself with your own assumptions and understanding. The Bible is a complex read yet anyone who honestly approaches it to truly learn about it and the teachings within it need to do so in the context which it is written.
    The Bible contains a number of different kinds of literature: historical narrative, poetry, parable, epistles (teaching letters), and prophecy. If a passage of Scripture is clearly historical, then we must remember that its purpose is to describe things that actually happened. If a passage is poetic, then we should expect figurative language. It is essential to always read the passage around a verse. Who is the writer addressing—believers or nonbelievers, young or old, obedient or disobedient? What topic is being addressed in this passage? What is the unifying theme of this particular book of the Bible? How do the nearby verses help to explain this verse?
    If you are honestly wanting to better understand how to properly read the Bible this is a good starting point for you:
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/unlocking-scripture?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AIGDaily+%28Answers+in+Genesis+Daily+Articles%29
    If you are honestly wanting to know the history of the Bible this is a good starting point for you: http://findingtruthtoday.org/FAQ.aspx

  5. thoughtcounts Z

    Antony Flew changed his stance from atheist to deist, not to Christian. He has stated this very clearly on many occasions. He does not, by any stretch of the imagination, “have a personal relationship with His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus” as you say you do, and as you are implying that he does. Stop using him as an example for your side.
    Moreover, does it matter if a really outspoken atheist becomes Christian? If it really is “my search for the truth,” it shouldn’t matter what anyone else thinks. If you think it does matter — would you become an atheist if I could point out one single outspoken Christian who is now an atheist? Does it matter that about 2/3 of the world is not Christian? If all we’re doing is tallying up the votes of other people, it looks like Christianity is losing!

  6. thoughtcounts Z

    You talked a lot about context and said some sensible things, I think — “In my putting into context what you had taken out of context, I only had to put it into context to the parts which applied to it and not the whole Bible nor anything more than what was needed to put it into proper context” — but of course the real tricky part is figuring out exactly how much is proper context. You decided that what I quoted was taken out of context, but how do you draw the line at one sentence, or one paragraph, one page, one chapter? You have some pre-set idea of what the real message is, and you quote however much is necessary to make it sound like that is the message. Quote too little, and it sounds like the point I’m making is right. But quote too much, and it sounds like you believe something completely incoherent. Gotta find that sweet spot right in the middle.
    And yes, I think the real and complete context is that all these quotations are coming from a book that is riddled with contradictions, within itself and with what we know about the world around us. I see no reason to believe that the Bible is true, given the context of the entirety of the Bible. There are particular lines that seem poignant or poetic on their own, sure, but that doesn’t mean they are holy and divine any more than it makes Emily Dickinson’s work or Allen Ginsberg’s work holy and divine.
    I don’t actually care whether we reach the “right” understanding of a particular piece of scripture, because I think the whole thing is ultimately nonsense. My only real point in this has been to show you that the book you assert is holy, is very explicitly teaching the opposite of what you claim it teaches. Your complaints about context are just red herrings. I will ask you one more time, to please read what I wrote before:

    Jesus said, “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” I cannot imagine a more clear statement. … No more context should be needed to understand it. Unless you believe that Jesus lied to people you should believe that you can get anything you want through prayer. Why do you not believe this?

    Do you think that Jesus lied to people, or do you think that you will get anything you pray for? It has to be one or the other. There is no gray area to claim that more context is needed.
    For someone so allegedly open to thinking for yourself and honestly seeking the truth, you are remarkably resistant to answering this very simple question. Was Jesus lying, or did he actually promise to fulfill every believer’s prayers?

  7. @GospelToday

    Talented Chimp I do not have to believe in Christ Jesus but I choose to do so for many reasons including the personal evidence I have received which confirms to me that He not only exists, but too that He loves me and has a glorious future planed for me. Unlike many, I have done a lot of research and study to discover the truth. I had to go through a lot of lies to find the truth yet to those who truly honestly seek the truth, the truth becomes known to them personally.
    From the name you gave yourself “Talented Chimp” to comment here, you must think that Darwinian Evolution is true. If you were to honestly and truly seek the truth about it, you will find that it is a lie. There is no evidence whatsoever that Darwinian Evolution is true. You and I did not come from a lower life form and first life did not come from a “self-bootstrapping crane which eventually raised the world as we know it into its present complex existence” as Richard Dawkins said on page 185 in his delude book, “The God Delusion” either. There is no evidence for Darwinian Evolution and there will never be any evidence for it because it is a myth which many people choose to believe in. Also, there’s no, “cosmological crane” which Richard Dawkins said on 185 in his deluded book that created the universe. This is just deluded thinking with no evidence to support it.
    The question I have for you is, are you as honest in your search for the truth as Antony Flew? http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/are-you-as-honest-in-your-search-for-the-truth-as-antony-flew-is.html

  8. @GospelToday

    Talented Chimp I do know that God exists and I have personal evidence of His existence and I even have a personal relationship with His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus. You can read about my Personal Relationship with Christ Jesus at this link: http://tinyurl.com/yk8n6jb In this article it also gives some of the personal evidence of God’s existence I have encountered during my lifetime. The personal evidence came from my willingness to not deny God’s existence.
    You contradicted yourself in your comment, “Nowhere do atheists deny that truth exists. We deny the Christian “truth” because it doesn’t represent reality.”
    I suggest that you stop listening to someone else telling you what to think and that you start thinking for yourself. You only are responsible for your life and the choices you make. You can listen to others all of your life and not know the truth and that is a choice you can make. I suggest however that you honestly and truly start seeking the truth today. There’s only one choice that really counts in this life and it lasts an eternity.

  9. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z to your addendum; the search for the truth is the sole responsibility of each person. There is only one truth and all else is a lie. It is up to each of us to sort through the lies and find the truth. Some people have no desire to know the truth. Some people have a desire to know the truth yet they lack the fortitude to honestly seek it because they are for some reason afraid to do so. Some people just want their own way to be the truth and so that’s what they hold to as truth. Some people know the truth yet choose not to accept it. Some people have sought the truth, found it and know the truth and accept it.
    If you think someone other than you can seek and find the truth for you, then you are mistaken. If you think someone other than you can accept the truth for you, you are also mistaken. What you want to accept as truth for yourself is a choice only you make for yourself. What you choose to accept as truth may be a lie. What you choose to accept as truth may actually be true. Unless you honestly and truly seek to know what you have chosen to believe is in fact true is up to you.
    You only get one lifetime to determine if what you belief is true or not. Your lifetime has already come this far and how much longer you nor I know. I suggest that you get to honestly and truly seeking to know the truth.

  10. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z you are correct in your statement “Surely the best thing to do would be to look at the entire Bible at once.” in that when a person studies the Bible as a whole to understand what is being taught in it is the best way to understand passages within the Bible. You are incorrect in your statement, “But we are only human and not capable of processing so many words at one time.” because human beings are capable of learning from reading because we are intelligent beings created in God’s image and not just an animal. When people study they read books and comprehend the subject within the book through their intellect and their desire to comprehend it properly. If you were to study the Bible you would find that it is very consistent and through its consistency if you take the time to actually honestly study it, you will understand and know when something is taken out of context or not and how to put things into context if something is taken out of context.
    Let’s do a simple demonstration of an intelligent human being displaying the ability to see when something has been taken out of context or not. The following quote was taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
    “Jefferson’s commitment to liberty extended to many areas of individual freedom. In his “commonplace book,” he copied a passage from Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria related to the issue of gun control. The quote reads, “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes … Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
    This is taken out of context from that quote: Jefferson wanted, ‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms’ so to, ‘disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes’ because he felt laws like that would be a way to help prevent crimes.
    Now with that being taken out of context from that Wikipedia link about Thomas Jefferson, did you have to read the whole link about Thomas Jefferson to correct the statements above or just the paragraph which was taken out of context? In this case just the paragraph which was taken out of context however if you read the whole link about Thomas Jefferson you will better understand who he is and what he thought and his nature.
    In my putting into context what you had taken out of context, I only had to put it into context to the parts which applied to it and not the whole Bible nor anything more than what was needed to put it into proper context; just like in the simple example I gave above with Jefferson’s comments about gun laws being taken out of context.
    With an understanding of the whole Bible, you will understand the nature of God and from that you will know when something is taken out of context about God’s nature. Knowing God’s nature then helps put into proper context what is written in the Bible. So it is good to read and study the Bible and understand it as a whole so to know when someone takes something out of context so that you can properly explain to them what the context is.

  11. Talented Chimp

    “…it is God who has the personal evidence a person needs to have a personal relationship with Him.”
    Personal evidence is not evidence. This is Anselm’s refrain; “I believe that I may understand.” You have to believe in your god to receive the evidence of his existence! As a logical argument, this fails miserably.

  12. Talented Chimp

    The “atheist” worldview (everyone has a worldview) changes when the evidence changes. Can the same be said about the religious worldview?
    Just because we have an identifying symbol, the scarlet A, doesn’t make it an idol, and we don’t worship it because it is not a thing worthy of worship. If someone came up with a better identifying symbol, we would use that. Would Christians change the cross if someone thought of something better to represent them?
    Nowhere do atheists deny that truth exists. We deny the Christian “truth” because it doesn’t represent reality. Atheists deny they have faith because faith is not needed when you don’t have to deny reality to support your worldview.
    However, your whole argument is invalid because you come from an a priori position that you are right and atheists are wrong; that your god exists and that atheists are simply denying this “truth”. You therefore are in no position to analyse what atheists think or hold true because you see it all through the lens of denial of your “truth”.
    We do not deny your god or Jesus. For us the former either does not exist or the evidence is unconvincing, to say the least, and consequently the latter was just a man who said some stuff 2,000 years ago. So we do not believe what Christians say they are. It is a belief, but that does not make it a religion.
    But here’s the kicker. Belief and certainty are not the same as knowledge. Both Christians and atheist don’t actually “know” if gods exist, but based on available empirical evidence, they don’t.

  13. thoughtcounts Z

    An addendum to my previous post… Here is what you do not understand, despite all the comments here before mine:

    The choice to honestly seek the truth is yours to make and only your responsibility to make for yourself. No one can make your choice to find the truth for you as it is something that you must choose to do for yourself.

    Atheists are making the choice to find the truth. They are not merely taking on face value the doctrine handed to them as young children, by family, by friends, by their communities. Most atheists have carefully considered the claims put forward by religious people (of a large variety of religions), and found them to be lacking. They have sought the truth and have not found any evidence for the truth to be what you assert.
    It seems that the real problem is not that atheists do not seek the truth, but that you are not okay with anyone else finding a truth that does not agree with your beliefs. If you really do think that it is each person’s own responsibility to seek truth for him or herself, you ought to respect the outcome of other people’s searches for truth. But I suspect that you are sugar-coating your real message, when you say that each of us must choose for ourselves to seek the truth. As comment after comment of yours has shown, your real message is that everyone must choose for themselves to seek your truth, to “open their minds” and pray that your truth be shown to them. If that is your real message, that you do not respect anyone else’s quest for truth if it does not lead to the right answer as determined by you… there is no point to me being here, and no point to dialogue with you.
    Since your original post completely misconstrued what it means to be an atheist, many atheists have come here to try to correct your misunderstandings. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were well-intentioned and interested in a real discussion, but more and more it seems that that is not the case. I have tried to explain to you why it is silly to suggest that someone who does not believe in a particular god pray to that god for help in believing in that god. This has led us into a discussion about prayer, in which I see some grave contradictions between what you claim and what your scripture teaches. There is even a contradiction between your claim that prayer doesn’t work like a genie, and your other claim that if I pray with an honest heart then the truth of Jesus will be revealed to me. I cannot have a rational discussion with someone who does not have logically consistent ideas — or, since we are human and make mistakes, I should say: someone who does not seek to refine their own beliefs to make them as logically consistent as possible.
    If you are able to demonstrate that you can think about your religious beliefs rationally, I will happily continue to comment here. I enjoy dialogue with religious people, because I find it interesting to clarify my own understanding of the world and my understanding of religion. Hopefully you enjoy such dialogue too. But if you really are unable to acknowledge blatant contradictions staring you in the face, I think any further time I spend here would be wasted.
    I look forward to your reply.

  14. thoughtcounts Z

    Surely the best thing to do would be to look at the entire Bible at once. But we are only human and not capable of processing so many words at one time. Even you only quote limited passages. Why have you not quoted longer? After all, we should consider the context — for example, if we thought about the entire Bible we could see that in the Old Testament, your omniscient, infallible God describes laws for living which are to be followed by his people forever and ever with no exceptions. Then later, Jesus, who God himself in the form of his son who is fully human but also fully God at the same time, explains to people that those old laws are unimportant and don’t need to be followed anymore. That seems like an important piece of context for figuring out exactly what it is God wants of us, no?
    I suppose we wouldn’t want to have too much context, or we might accidentally disprove our own point! Is that it? The lines that a Christian chooses to quote from contain exactly the right amount of context for the situation (wow! I am impressed), but lines chosen by an atheist must be cherrypicked just to manipulate the message. Sneaky, sneaky atheists! Tsk tsk.
    I actually think your “context” which you added to my quotes does not change the interpretation in the least. You wrote:

    When we are purely open and totally honest in our prayer God will reward us by listening to our prayer.

    Yes, this is exactly the point that I was making. You surrounded it with tons and tons of text, but when you get right down to it you agree with me. Pray in the right way, with the right feelings in your heart, and God will reward you.
    You also go on and on with this usual trope about God’s will instead of man’s will. I will leave aside the usual complaints about such an ideology. I only really want to hear from you a clear answer as to why this completely unambiguous statement is not true.
    Jesus said, “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” I cannot imagine a more clear statement. What context am I missing — the part where Jesus says, “and by ‘all,’ I mean potentially none, zero, zilch” or the part where he says “and by ‘receive,’ I mean maybe it will never happen to you in your whole lifetime”? This is a very simple sentence. No more context should be needed to understand it. Unless you believe that Jesus lied to people you should believe that you can get anything you want through prayer. Why do you not believe this?

  15. @GospelToday

    Thoughts Z I do not deny nor ignore any of the Holy Bible. I also do not take it out of context nor do I add into it something different than what it states in the passages as often most atheists do. Taking out of context and/or adding to a passage leads to confusion and misunderstandings.
    Matthew 6:5-8
    And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
    Matt 6:5 states that we should not be pretenders and a hypocrite when we pray and that if we only pray for bragging purposes (outside of God’s will), God will not listen to our prayer; thus all we’d have would be the bragging rights that we prayed.
    Matt 6:6
    “But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” This verse is where we are informed to be purely open and totally honest in our prayer. The “go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father” is the part which describes being totally open and purely honest in your prayer. When we are purely open and totally honest in our prayer God will reward us by listening to our prayer.
    Matt 67-8
    “And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” These verses describe that we are not to chant a prayer over and over working yourself into a frenzy and/or trance. God wants us to be coherent when we talk with Him and He wants us to be purely openly totally honest with Him. He already knows what we think and how we feel yet He wants us to be purely openly totally honest with Him and let Him know it. God also already knows what we need (and want) and again He wants us to be purely openly totally honest with Him about it.
    Matthew 6:9-10 explain how to pray:
    “This, then, is how you should pray:
    ” ‘Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    your kingdom come,
    your will be done
    on earth as it is in heaven.
    Notice that as followers of Christ Jesus when we pray that we are to first give honor to God and then to pray for God’ will to be done… not our will to be done. This is the major difference between a genie (if one was real) granting you a wish which fulfills your desire and will and God’s reward of His listening to our prayer. Also in a genie granting a wish, there is no faith in the genie needed because that’s what a genie is supposed to be; something that grants your desires.
    What you left out is the context of the verses you mentioned as well as a general lack of understanding of prayer (which is common for most atheists to do when they bring up Bible verses). Mainly each prayer needs done in God’s will (not our will) and with enough faith in God that you can expect what you prayed for to actually happen which means the prayer you prayed was within God’s will so that God’s will is done. What this means is that in our prayers as followers of Christ Jesus, we are to be as close to God as we can be in our prayer when we pray that we are truly praying God’s will so that it can be done and done in His timeframe not ours.
    Now you may ask, “what about prayer for a loved one’s healing?” and “what about prayer for getting a better job or just getting a job? And “what about prayer for my health to be better?”, etc. which seem to be prayers for your or my desires? Well, they are prayers for your or my desires yet they also fall into God’s will as well because God wants us to want to be healthy and He wants us to want others to be healthy and He wants us to want to prosper. This is all within God’s will for us to want and desire. There is however unlike if a genie existed granting theses wishes, no promise made to us by God that here on earth we will be healthy or that all of our loved ones will be healthy or that we will prosper within this world. God’s will is for us to take care of ourselves and to take care of others and for us to work so that we can take care of others and ourselves.
    Hebrews 13:20
    “God has raised from death our Lord Jesus, who is the Great Shepherd of the sheep as the result of his blood, by which the eternal covenant is sealed. May the God of peace provide you with every good thing you need in order to do his will, and may he, through Jesus Christ, do in us what pleases him. And to Christ be the glory forever and ever! Amen.”
    Unlike a genie if one existed granting our desires at the time of our wish, God’s promise to us for meeting our needs rests upon our faith in Him to provide our needs and our openness to the means which He uses to provide our needs.
    Jeremiah 29:11
    God states: “I alone know the plans I have for you, plans to bring you prosperity and not disaster, plans to bring about the future you hope for.”
    Unlike a genie if one existed granting us prosperity at the time of our wish, God’s promise to us of prosperity rests in us to have faith in His providing us prosperity which could include prosperity here on earth but more so our prosperity comes in our hope of being in Heaven with God.
    In summing up, I do not deny nor ignore any of the Holy Bible. I also do not take it out of context nor do I add into it something different than what it states in the passages as often most atheists do. Taking out of context and/or adding to a passage leads to confusion and misunderstandings.
    God is not a genie granting one’s desires and wants. True honest prayer is not a request of God for God to do something outside of His will. True honest prayer is not done in your or my will, it is done in God’s will. True honest prayer is an opening of one’s self in complete and utter truthfulness of one’s self as an expression of one’s self to God. You can be and should be totally honest and open with God in your prayer and you should not try to hide anything.
    Those who follow Christ Jesus are supposed to give honor and glory to God in prayer and to have faith in God that God’s will shall be done and that we are praying for God’s will to be done. Those who follow Christ Jesus in prayer ask in prayer for God’s will to be done within God’s timeframe and not our timeframe.
    Matthew 7:7-11
    Jesus said: “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!”
    This was Jesus’ promise that if someone is truly honestly seeking to know the truth (God) that if you truly honestly seek, you will find the truth. If you knock on the door of truth honestly wanting to enter, the door will be opened to you. If you truly honestly ask to receive the truth, you will receive the evidence you need to know the truth. Jesus goes on to tell you of how His Father is faithful in that if you are truly honestly seeking to know the truth, that He will not withhold the truth from you.
    The choice to honestly seek the truth is yours to make and only your responsibility to make for yourself. No one can make your choice to find the truth for you as it is something that you must choose to do for yourself.

  16. thoughtcounts Z

    You quote instructions from Matthew about how to honestly pray. These are familiar lines. But you seem to ignore from within that passage, Matthew 6:6: “Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” You also ignore other parts of Matthew:
    7:7-11: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
    18:9: Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
    21:21-22: Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
    These are just a few selections from Matthew, in the interest of succinctness far from all I could find there to make my point. This is to say nothing of the rest of the Gospels, or the Epistles, or of popular Christian doctrine. So, before we can go any further in our discussion, I need you to answer this question:
    Do you deny the truth of these passages, despite the fact that they are included in the Bible and are often presented as quotations of Jesus? Or do you admit that your holy scripture teaches of a deity who will grant your wishes and fulfill your desires?

  17. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z reply part 2 of 2
    You say, “You have not offered any proof, you have merely asked me to induce a hallucination in myself and take that as proof.” No, I did not say to take the prayer as proof nor did I say to induce yourself into an hallucination. Again you show that you do not understand what true prayer is. True prayer is not a trance that you place yourself into so to hallucinate. There are many people who teach that this is what prayer is however they are incorrect in teaching this. To teach that prayer is an hallucination takes God out of it because God is very real and to pray to God is a very real personal event. The teaching that a prayer calls for one to place his/her self into an hallucinogenic state as in chanting over and over again something and has nothing to do with true prayer because you do not have to alter your mind to talk with God. This type of teaching about prayer has also lead many people away from the one true God who loves them because of the silliness of having to chant one’s self into a mind-altered state, an hallucinogenic illusion of reality which in reality leads away from truth.
    An honest true prayer comes when you as your utmost honest humble self, open your innermost vulnerabilities in admission that you do not know everything, freely admit that you are not perfect and that there are things which you have done that you are sorry that you did. Followers of Christ Jesus are instructed by Jesus himself in how to honestly pray written in Matthew 6:5-15 – http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206:5-15&version=NIV
    An example of someone who was openly and utmost honest in humbling himself is Antony Flew. Antony Flew for 50 years was one of the world’s preeminent atheists when he published over 30 books in which he made the case against God’s existence. One thing however kept Antony Flew from staying an atheist which was that he had made it his commitment to honestly, “follow the argument wherever it leads” which lead him to a belief in God as Creator. Are you as honest in your search for the truth as Antony Flew? http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/are-you-as-honest-in-your-search-for-the-truth-as-antony-flew-is.html
    In you asking me, “How is praying the Skeptic’s Prayer *not* superimposing my own terms, desires, timeframe?” I see an honest question about how to honestly pray. I hope that I have given to you enough information on how to honestly pray and I also hope that you choose to honestly pray the Skeptic’s Prayer or something like it as you are being openly and honest in prayer. Honestly praying the Skeptic’s Prayer will lead you to the personal evidence you need so that you can choose to have a loving personal relationship with God.

  18. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z reply part 1 of 2
    thoughtcounts Z you misunderstand what true prayer is. True prayer is not like asking a genie to fulfill your wishes and desires. This is however what many people think prayer is. There are also many people out there “saying” that they are a Christian and are teaching that this is what prayer is. These people teach that if you just have enough faith in what you pray to God that He will deliver it to you; no matter what it is that you desire. Some of these people teaching this even give timeframes that describe what levels of faith you need to have when for you to receive the wishes you have prayed to occur. All along these people teaching this are getting what they want through their taking money from the people they are teaching that God is a personal genie who answers your prayers for material things. This type of false teaching is what leads many people to disbelieve in God. In fact, the god that these people teach about who answers selfish prayers like a genie really does not exist yet due to the false teachings these people have fallen prey to it also turns these people from the one true God who truly does exist and loves them.
    Think about this for a few moments prior to continuing reading my reply; what is the current calendar year (2009) and all past and future years based on? Per your statement of, “There’s tons of evidence of leprechauns and unicorns! Just look at all the literature written by explorers about the amazing creatures they encountered, all the stories and legends passed down in Ireland.” If you were to honestly look into these “stories” you will find no evidence for them. By contrast honestly looking into history, you will find that there are many sources of evidence of Christ Jesus outside of the Holy Bible. You can start with this link (http://findingtruthtoday.org/FAQ.aspx) to begin an honest quest into the true existence of Christ Jesus. That link is to a web page that holds a number of links which lead to numerous pages of information from many different web sites which answer a number of questions including giving the evidence which is outside of the Holy Bible that shows Christ Jesus really and truly existed. You can also in your honest search for truth read the book of John within the New Testament to help you better understand the proof within the Holy Bible of Christ Jesus. This link is to the first chapter of the book of John: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=NIV

  19. @GospelToday

    Kylyssa, now you ask me, “How can you say I did not honestly want to believe in God?” In my first reply to you at the very start I gave to you the reasons, ‘Kylyssa, you are dishonest with yourself in that you start off by saying, “I’d love to believe in God.” then you said, “Who wouldn’t want to think someone exists who will always love them?” and then you turn around and say, “I could never force myself to think of God as real.”’ In your own admission you were trying to force something upon yourself which you did not want and seemingly still do not want. This forcing of yourself to do what you did not really want to do was your being dishonest with yourself about you truly wanting to have a personal relationship with God.
    I am very capable of comprehending the loss of a loved one dear to me. My father was murdered just over twenty years ago. You can read about it here if you want. http://tinyurl.com/dadmurdered
    You ask, “How many years must a person make an honest prayer for belief before it happens?” From your question and from your statement, “I didn’t even ask for evidence or proof, just for the ability to believe that God was real.” I see that you do not yet understand.
    It isn’t that you should pray for “belief” to happen, you should be honestly praying for the evidence you need to happen so that you can honestly believe without doubt. You should also be honest in your quest for the truth in that you will follow where the evidence you receive leads you. Without the personal evidence you need being revealed to you, you will not have the evidence you need to truly and honestly believe and without you being honest in your willingness to follow the evidence revealed to you, you will not accept any evidence revealed to you.
    You can read these two articles to help you better understand what it means to have, “Faith in Christ Jesus” – http://tinyurl.com/mreomq and about my own personal relationship with Christ Jesus and some of the personal evidence which was revealed to me so that I have the personal evidence I needed to have faith in and a personal relationship with Christ Jesus. My Personal Relationship with Christ Jesus: http://tinyurl.com/yk8n6jb
    My sympathy and condolences to your loss of your loved one and for the terrible things which have infiltrated your life. The terrible things that some people do to another person are truly despicable. Although I cannot personally comprehend all the tragic events which occurred in your life as I have not personally encountered them in mine, I can greatly relate to your loss of a loved one.
    I am so thankful that after all the pain, humiliation and suffering you have encountered that you have not taken your life in suicide. In this day, so many people do not hold their life precious and thus at the smallest encounter of any pain and/or suffering they encounter they take their own life. I applaud you for your endurance and overcoming these tragic events within your life and hope that you are helping others who have gone through something similar as an example to help keep them from taking their own life. I pray too that you get the evidence that you need so to personally have a relationship with Christ Jesus.

  20. thoughtcounts Z

    How is praying the Skeptic’s Prayer *not* superimposing my own terms, desires, timeframe? Prayer is pleading with God for him to do what you ask!
    You wrote:

    there is no evidence of leprechauns or unicorns so why would anyone open their mind to them? For Christ Jesus being God there is evidence beyond all doubts and there is a means to which a truly honest seeker of the truth can find the evidence he or she needs to confirm that truth.

    There’s tons of evidence of leprechauns and unicorns! Just look at all the literature written by explorers about the amazing creatures they encountered, all the stories and legends passed down in Ireland… come on, there’s lots of documentation. And if you just open your heart and ask leprechauns to reveal themselves to you, you’ll see!
    Why is that not compelling to you? It’s exactly what you’re saying to me. Here’s the Bible, people wrote down what they thought about God and Jesus and that should be proof! Just open your heart and ask God to say hello to you, and you’ll hear him say hello! This is exactly as compelling as my offer of leprechauns. You have not offered any proof, you have merely asked me to induce a hallucination in myself and take that as proof. Not that enticing!

  21. Kylyssa Shay

    I find it offensive that you called me a liar.
    How can you say I did not honestly want to believe in God? When my first love died, I wanted God and an afterlife to exist so incredibly badly. You probably are incapable of comprehending the agony of knowing the person you love most in the world, more than your own life, no longer exists at all, is rotting in the ground. How can you say my desire to think God was real was a lie?
    How many years must a person make an honest prayer for belief before it happens?
    When I was homeless and hopeless, handicapped, discarded by society, I wanted more than anything for God to be real. It would have given my horrific life and suffering some meaning. I suffered rape, filth, hunger, abuse, and humiliation. No one loved me, not even myself. I wanted someone, anyone to care that I existed. I lay curled up on the cold ground many a night pleading, “Dear God, if you are real, please just let me believe that you are.” I didn’t even ask for evidence or proof, just for the ability to believe that God was real. I thought by asking it over and over I might eventually think God was real. I didn’t, not ever. I was so incredibly alone and suffering – how dare you say I didn’t want your beautiful dream?
    I wanted that morphine of the mind that you have. I wanted it to ease my suffering worse than a junkie wants crack.
    No doubt you’ll find a way to twist my words (as most fundamentalist Christians do) to say I’m angry at God for all my suffering. But you will be lying because I don’t think God is real. Suffering didn’t make me hate something imaginary, it made me want to believe it more than anything.
    Unlike you, I can’t just decide to think that something completely without evidence of its existence is real no matter how badly I want to. Somehow, you convinced yourself that God is real – not everyone can.
    You seem to be completely incapable of understanding that not everyone thinks God is real.

  22. @GospelToday

    Unknown you are missing the fact that it is not as you put it, “…PEOPLE SAY THEY HAVE ALL OF THIS ‘EVIDENCE..” it is God who has the personal evidence a person needs to have a personal relationship with Him.
    Physical evidence is everywhere yet people choose to ignore it. If you are truly honestly as you stated, “SERIOUSLY. I WANT THIS. I NEED THIS. I HAVE BEEN SEARCHING FOR THIS…”personal evidence, you need to be really truly honestly searching and seeking for this evidence and not demanding your way and timeframe.
    Requesting your terms and it being within your timelines would place your desires above God. Although God loves you just the same, He does not bow down to anyone; including you and me. So for you to choose to act upon the assumption you make without any evidence that proves that God does not exist, to me seems foolish and not a wise choice for you to make.
    It is your choice to make to truly honestly seek or not. I do not make the procedures up about how God respects our privacy and how He chooses to reveal Himself to someone; I just follow how it is written in the Holy Bible and disclose the information to people so that they know what to do if they honestly are seeking evidence of God’s existence.
    The “Skeptic’s Prayer” is a tool for someone who is not so in denial of reality that he/she has closed off their mind to the reality that God has not and cannot ever be proven to not exist. It is an honest person’s act of willingness to actually truly seek the absolute truth by opening their mind to the possibility of God’s existence.
    If you truly honestly pray the Skeptic’s Prayer and are really truly and honestly seeking to know the absolute truth, you will find the absolute truth. If however you do it to show me or anyone else that the Skeptic’s Prayer does not work, you are not being honest in your seeking the absolute truth and thus you will never experience the evidence that only you and God know you need to have a loving and personal relationship with Him.

  23. @GospelToday

    Joffan a common tactic that I’ve seen while reading many atheist blogs is that some atheists having nothing to directly dispute or deny the facts presented to them in a comment or within an article turn to criticism of the spelling, style, typos, grammar, etc. within the comment and/or article.
    I notice you are a true atheist in that you have deny the dictionary definitions of words and have ignored the dictionary definitions of the words at the bottom of the article. Something you seem to deny is that words in English (and other languages) often have more than one meaning to them dependent upon how they are used and where they are used in sentences. For this reason which you choose to ignore, words within dictionaries have the multiple definitions listed for each word to help people to properly use the wrd in sentences and in meaning.

  24. unknown

    “For Christ Jesus being God there is evidence beyond all doubts”
    Present this. NOW. SERIOUSLY. I WANT THIS. I NEED THIS. I HAVE BEEN SEARCHING FOR THIS AND HEARING PEOPLE SAY THEY HAVE ALL OF THIS ‘EVIDENCE’, FAIL TO PRESENT *ANY*, AND THEN GET SERIOUSLY CONFUSED AS TO WHY I DON’T JUST ACCEPT ALL OF THIS EVIDENCE THAT THEY HAVEN’T SHOWN ME.

  25. Joffan

    GospelToday: perhaps you need to phrase your questions as a positive rather than a negative to assist in the conversation. For example, when you ask a question like “Do you not deny X?”, it is confusing, especially when it appears possible or even likely that you actually intend to ask “Do you deny X?” but could also be asking “Do you have an opinion on X?” or even “Do you affirm X?”
    So, regarding your 12:21 comment, on the assumption that “Do you not deny” actually means “Do you deny”…
    “Religion” is a belief in a supernatural force or forces. Atheism, therefore, is not a religion. (I deny that atheism is a religion).
    “Faith”, in a religious context, is belief without evidence. I do not have faith in atheism, but I do believe it to be the truth based on the balance of evidence for God (extremely poor) and the extraordinary nature of the various described gods, which would require significant positive evidence in the light of contemporary scientific knowledge.
    I couldn’t work out the “Christ Jesus is not God” question. My opinion on the issue of the Trinity is that it is ridiculous story, even by the standard of religions, that cannot be taken seriously and has to be sheltered behind the “mystery” cloak to avoid being laughed out of church.
    De-baptisms just sound like a group having a joke at the expense of Christianity. I would deny that they have the kind of special significance that I think you would ascribe to baptism.
    There is indeed a logo for atheism, the stylised letter A, but I again would deny that it is a “worship symbol”. It’s more akin to an organisational logo, which you might wear with some pride but wouldn’t worship.
    As for hate… you’d better ask those who are the haters, those who speak with contempt and loathing anyone bold enough to call themselves “atheist”.

  26. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z there is no evidence of leprechauns or unicorns so why would anyone open their mind to them? For Christ Jesus being God there is evidence beyond all doubts and there is a means to which a truly honest seeker of the truth can find the evidence he or she needs to confirm that truth.
    It seems as though you do as you stated have a mind which is, “… open to the possibility of God’s existence.” Yet you do not truly want to honestly seek the evidence of personal proof of God’s existence per your statement, “… I act on the assumption that God does not exist.” From this statement you made it says that you want any evidence of God displayed to you on your terms and within your timelines.
    Requesting your terms and it being within your timelines would place your desires above God. Although God loves you just the same, He does not bow down to anyone; including you and me. So for you to choose to act upon the assumption you make without any evidence that proves that God does not exist, to me seems foolish and not a wise choice for you to make.
    It is your choice to make to truly honestly seek or not. I do not make the procedures up about how God respects our privacy and how He chooses to reveal Himself to someone; I just follow how it is written in the Holy Bible and disclose the information to people so that they know what to do if they honestly are seeking evidence of God’s existence.
    Personally, I’d like for everyone to truly and honestly pray the Skeptic’s Prayer and discover the personal evidence they need so that they too can have a loving personal relationship with Christ Jesus. I know however that not everyone wants a loving personal relationship with Christ Jesus because that is their choice.

  27. thoughtcounts Z

    @GospelToday: “POE” was, I believe, referring to Poe’s Law. You can read more about it there. Basically, the commenter was unsure whether you were being serious or making a parody.
    Regarding the “skeptic’s prayer”: My mind is open to the possibility of God’s existence. If I saw any reason whatsoever to think that God existed, I would stop calling myself an atheist and I would believe in that deity. In the meantime, I act on the assumption that God does not exist. That means praying to God would be entirely ridiculous.
    Do you open your mind to leprechauns by beseeching them to make their presence known to you? I doubt it — but why not? I heard if you just ask them with a genuinely open heart, you’ll see that they exist, and probably even get their pot of gold!

  28. @GospelToday

    CJ do you have faith in your belief that there is no God?

  29. @GospelToday

    Sorry unknown, you’ll not get a reply when you are not being honest with your seeking the truth as in scoffing at the true means of you finding truth.

  30. @GospelToday

    Aaron, so you do not deny that atheism is a religion? You do not deny you have faith in your belief that Christ Jesus is not God? You do not deny that atheism is a worldview being evangelized to spread as a world religion?

  31. @GospelToday

    stuff_monger I do not know what “POE” stands for in your comment so I neither deny or confirm it without knowing what it is.

  32. @GospelToday

    RBH here you go:
    http://www.dailyatheist.net/?p=673&cpage=1#comment-53
    http://www.dailyatheist.net/?p=885#IDComment38965841
    RichardDawkins.net is another yet you have to be a member to view the links.
    and most every day on Twitter http://twitter.com/GospelToday

  33. @GospelToday

    Cyphern what misconceptions were perpetuated?
    Everything that is there in the article happened and happens. Do you not deny that atheism is a religion? Do you not deny that you have faith in it? Do you not deny that you hold a belief that Christ Jesus is not God? Did not the de-baptisms happen? Do atheists not have a special letter “A” that they hold dear?
    The definitions of the words I used are all in the dictionary and I did not write the dictionary, I just properly use it.
    Why do you as an atheist feel hated?

  34. CJ

    My position is very simple. There is no god.
    I don’t care if you call it denial of what you believe, a position of faith, or whatever. Your interpretation doesn’t change my position.

  35. @GospelToday

    Weemaryanne a large number in this case is up to around 500 people who call themselves atheist which I’ve talked with and/or read/participated in their blogs over the last eight months.

  36. @GospelToday

    Scott Van, seems to be that you do not read well or you forget what you read quickly because it is not me who defines what a follower of Christ Jesus is, it is Christ Jesus who defines it as stated in the article.

  37. unknown

    Lord Odin, I don’t know if you even exist. I am a skeptic. I doubt. I think you may be only a myth. I am however not certain, (at least when I’m completely honest with myself). So if you really do exist, and if you really did promise to reward all seekers, you must be hearing me now.
    So I hereby declare myself a seeker, a seeker of the truth, whatever it is and wherever it is. I want to know the truth and live in the truth. If you are the truth, please help me.

  38. Aaron

    This article is rubbish. All that I could do is laugh when I read the sentence with:


    “…denying any belief in their denying too any faith in their belief of which too they deny in their denial of Christ Jesus.”

    You may have something interesting or thought-provoking in this article, but I can’t find it; it must be lost in the gibberish.

  39. stuff_monger

    This is a brilliant POE, do you deny it?
    Thank you! Hilarious

  40. RBH

    You wrote
    Just the other day I had a discussion with a number of atheists on a couple of very popular atheist blogs who adamantly denied that truth exists and insisted that truth changes over time.
    How about some links to those discussions to we can evaluate your report of what happened.

  41. Cyphern

    Ashlee didn’t accuse you of hating atheists. She accused you or perpetuating misconceptions about the most hated minority.

  42. Weemaryanne

    @GospelToday, how many is “a large number”?

  43. Scott Van Tussenbrook

    @GospelToday — If all the Christians who accused other Christians of not being real Christians were to disappear, there’d be no Christians left.
    What do you think that says — about Christians, and about Christianity?

  44. @GospelToday

    Ashlee not everyone who “says” or “said” that they “are” or “were” a Christian “is” or “was” really following Christ Jesus. http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/2009/09/so-you-say-you-are-a-christian.html
    How arrogant of you to say that I hate atheists (or anyone). I do not hate anyone. If I did hate anyone, it would be the person who murdered my dad yet I do not hate him and I do not hate anyone including you. I actually pray for the salvation of the people who were involved in murdering my dad. http://tinyurl.com/dadmurdered

  45. @GospelToday

    Llewelly I only wrote about my experiences with atheists and reported the events which happened.

  46. @GospelToday

    Penn people may “say” that they are a Christian yet they are not a true follower of Christ Jesus. Anyone making a threat of harm to someone and calling themselves a Christian is not following Christ Jesus. http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/2009/09/so-you-say-you-are-a-christian.html

  47. @GospelToday

    Mikespeir you seem deluded in your thinking that I know what you are thinking?

  48. @GospelToday

    thoughtcounts Z Honestly praying the Skeptic’s Prayer is not as you put it, “How could I “honestly pray” to something I do not believe in, without first changing my mind and believing in it?”
    The “Skeptic’s Prayer” is about someone who is not so in denial of reality that he/she has closed off their mind to the reality that God has not and cannot ever be proven to not exist. It is an honest person’s act of willingness to actually truly seek the absolute truth by opening their mind to the possibility of God’s existence.

  49. @GospelToday

    Eddie, you think that I am bashing atheists because I wrote about my experiences with a large number of them and pointed out how the inconsistencies between their actions and their statements?

  50. @GospelToday

    Kylyssa, you are dishonest with yourself in that you start off by saying, “I’d love to believe in God.” then you said, “Who wouldn’t want to think someone exists who will always love them?” and then you turn around and say, “I could never force myself to think of God as real.” If you really truly honestly pray the “Skeptic’s Prayer” you do not have to force anything because God will provide to you the evidence you seek so that you know beyond any doubts that He truly exists and that He loves you.
    Christ Jesus is not a myth as a myth has no evidence to support it whereas there is abundant evidence to support Christ Jesus’ existence and His being God. The evidence someone needs to determine for his or her self comes from the person being truly honest in their search for truth. Overall Kylyssa, I feel you need to sit down and be blatantly honest with yourself as if you cannot be honest with yourself, you cannot be honest with anyone else either. Until you are blatantly honest with yourself and accept that you are not perfect, you are living a lie. Being truly honest with ourselves is a choice each of us must make yet so many people choose to be dishonest with themselves. I went through this myself a few years ago. http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/2009/08/a-testimonial-of-a-sinner.html
    There is no force in placing one’s faith into Christ Jesus as their savior, one only has to choose to be truly and honestly open minded to the facts and evidence supporting Christ Jesus as our God and savior. The evidence that you need to make the choice for you to accept Christ Jesus as your savior is different than the evidence than I needed and is also different than evidence that anyone else needs because God is a personal God who wants a personal relationship with you. You can read about the personal relationship I have with Christ Jesus and of some of the more prominent personal evidences God provided to me which helped me better understand and place my faith into Christ Jesus here if you want: http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/2009/10/my-personal-relationship-with-christ-jesus-1.html
    Placing your faith into Christ Jesus is a wonderful feeling because of the hope you feel and the love you experience. Not everyone wants to place their faith into Christ Jesus. You may be a person who chooses to not freely accept the free gift of salvation from your sins and this is a choice only you make for yourself and for the reasons you make your choice upon. If you want to know more about what it means to have faith in Christ Jesus you can read about it here: http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-truth-today/2009/09/what-does-it-mean-faith-in-christ-jesus.html
    If you choose to actually honestly pray the “Skeptic’s Prayer” without placing any timelines and demands for evidence, God will provide in His time the evidence you need and at that time you have a choice to make. Not everyone however makes a wise choice. I suggest that you make a wise choice.

  51. Ashlee

    I am an atheist – formerly a very devoted Christian. I am disappointed at the lack of knowledge in this blog. Morality is not tied to religion. I know many atheists who have stronger moral convictions than many of the Christians I have known. Also, I have nothing against Jesus. I do believe he had good teachings, but do not believe he was a deity. This blog only contributes to the ignorance about atheism, and the discrimination that is experienced. Atheists are the most hated minority group. Please stop contributing to the hate. Seek to learn, appreciate diversity, and show Christ-like love.

  52. llewelly

    Thanks. I laughed until the tears came. A superb parody of what religious people think about atheists. You should write for The Onion .

  53. penn

    “This worship symbol they proudly and broadly display apparently as an idol.”
    Do you honestly believe this? If so, you are greatly mistaken. Let’s perform a though experiment. Say you collect a whole bunch of scarlet A’s is the form of t-shirts, patches, stickers or whatever. Then let’s say you publicly burn them and upload the video to youtube. The worst you’d hear from atheists is derisive laughter for wasting your time. It’s not an idol in any sense of the word. It’s just an identifying symbol.
    Now let’s say I gathered up a bunch of bibles, crosses, crucifixes, etc. and I publicly burned them and uploaded the video to youtube. That video would be yanked within hours and I’d get death threats for at least several weeks if not years. For an example, check out the results of PZ Myers desecrating a communion host, Quran, and a copy of The God Delusion. He didn’t get any atheist threats for destroying the work of Dawkins, but he got tons of threats from pissed off Christians.

  54. mikespeir

    Gee. If only I’d known you were available to tell me what I’m thinking!

  55. thoughtcounts Z

    Forgive me if this is some kind of extremely elaborate joke I am not picking up on. But if it is not a joke:
    Please explain why you think a way to find out whether God exists is to believe that God exists and see how that makes me feel. How could I “honestly pray” to something I do not believe in, without first changing my mind and believing in it? You are presuming the outcome as part of the method.

  56. Eddie

    In the very strong field of silly writings bashing atheists, this has to be the stupidest. Yikes.

  57. Kylyssa Shay

    I’d love to believe in God. Who wouldn’t want to go to think their loved ones that have died are in paradise instead of just rotting? Who wouldn’t want to think they could get to paradise, too? Who wouldn’t want to think someone exists who will always love them? Who wouldn’t want to believe in perfect justice – all bad people punished and all good people rewarded? This stuff sounds fantastic!
    I’ve earnestly prayed a version of that skeptic’s prayer. I wasn’t asking for a pony, I was just asking to think God was real. It never worked. I could never force myself to think of God as real.
    How did you convince yourself that God was real?
    I’ve wanted to believe in God before, for all of those reasons listed up above but I could never get past the myths. Just like I wanted unicorns to be real as a child, but never thought they were, I wanted God to be real as an adult but never thought it was.
    So how did you force yourself to believe in this myth, how did you get past the total lack of evidence?

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